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I was walking the road to Santiago de

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Compostela 800 garages like this one

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Martin Sheen went on in the 2011 movie

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the way have become extremely popular in

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recent years and years

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the way is a very personal journey mr.

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Avery Daniel was my only child

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gonna walk the Camino de Santiago both

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of us come this is no way and according

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to today's guest dr. Rupert Sheldrake

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pilgrimages are just one example of the

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kind of spiritual practices whose

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benefits have support in science in fact

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that's the title of dr. sheldricks new

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book science and spiritual practices so

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we're going to talk about that in this

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upcoming interview but in true skeptical

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fashion I also pushed dr. Sheldrick a

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little bit on how this new emerging

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interface between science and

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spirituality might really work

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maybe I mean you're kind of advocating

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shut up and calculate becomes shut up

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and meditate yes I mean I think that

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actually at the basis of all spiritual

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traditions and religions experiences the

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primary the primary driver I think is

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what is in it for those people not a

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belief system as you know I'm a great

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admirer of dr. sheldricks work and this

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book certainly doesn't disappoint oh

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just one more thing before we get

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started there's a little popping at the

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very beginning of this interview it

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clears up in just a minute or two so

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please hang with me for all of that

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here's my interview with dr. Rupert

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Sheldrake

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today I'm so happy to welcome back dr.

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Rupert Sheldrake to skeptic Oh dr.

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Sheldrick who has not only appeared on

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skeptic Oh several times over the years

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but through his encouragement and

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guidance was really instrumental in the

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creation this show is truly one of my

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favorite guests to have on so Rupert

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welcome back so good to talk to you

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again they're going to be with you again

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I think and the reason for this visit

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today is this new book you've written

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science in spiritual practices

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transformative experiences and their

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effects on our bodies brains and health

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quite new book and as I was saying we're

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chatting about just a minute ago it is

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kind of great to see you back out there

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you know just really hitting the trail

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with this book doing a lot of

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appearances it looks like you're doing

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workshops and also lectures so how's all

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that going for you well it's going very

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well and we say father's books only out

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in Britain it's not coming out in the

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u.s. - autumn of 2018 but most most

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those activities in Britain at the

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moment so I didn't have to travel very

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far but there's there's a huge amount of

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interest in this and you know I'm really

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excited about all the themes in this

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book well you know we're there there is

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a lot of interest I started watching

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your interview with Russell Brand and I

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thought that was fascinating on a number

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of levels how did that go well Russell

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Brand is yeah he's an extremely

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intelligent person he's got here in

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Britain he's very very well known as as

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a as a comedian and as a kind of a sort

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of public intellectual he wouldn't like

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to be called that probably but he's very

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curious he's on a kind of spiritual

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quest himself

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I mean after years of drug addiction

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heroin addiction and alcohol addiction

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sex addiction etc he did a 12

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step program which changed his life and

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he's got a new book out himself called

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recovery which is about recovering from

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addictions and he's on a kind of

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spiritual mission at the moment so he

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resumed I mean he was curious and

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interested about this new book of mine

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and we get on extremely well we had a

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really good conversation he reaches a

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huge audience he does reach a huge

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audience and the other thing that I

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thought was interesting about the

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pairing and the conversation will try

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and link to it so everyone can see it

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because it was really a great

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conversation but I think he's this

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transitional transformational kind of

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figure in a lot of ways in that you know

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in pairing him with you he's calling

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on all the old atheistic

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materialistic nonsense that you've

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called on for so long but he's

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doing it in a different way coming at it

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from a different angle and he's pulling

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in a lot of different people so I think

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there's an interesting synergy with that

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message even though you're coming at it

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from a lot of different ways yes I think

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so I mean he's he's become very

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disillusioned with the kind of

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consumerist society and his message

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about addiction is not are you an addict

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or not but where are you on the

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addiction spectrum you know is it just

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compulsive Facebook messaging etc but I

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mean he sees Semaan consumerism all

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these as forms of addiction and so I've

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mostly been interested in a critique of

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materialism as a belief system as a

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worldview he's more coming to it from

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materialism as a lifestyle you know a

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consumerist lifestyle but he's extremely

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smart and he does get the point about

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the the bigger intellectual picture and

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in fact one reason that we did this

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conversation listed a few months ago he

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asked if he could come and talk to me

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and this was just a private meeting just

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the two of us to discuss the kind of

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issues I was discussing in my book

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sunset free the science delusion

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he wanted to get up to speed on some of

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these issues in science and he hasn't

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got a scientific background but I must

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say in our private conversation it

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became very clear to me what an

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incredibly quick mind he has and how

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quickly he assimilates things and is

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able to summarize them yeah that's great

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and it as you alluded to what I find is

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that you know everyone's trying to just

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find a way to get to the other side

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because clearly the side of the sciences

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we know at the dopey materialism has

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never really worked for people but

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they've just kind of had to carry on

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because that's the thing and I feel like

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Russell Brand is is just jumped over to

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the other side and said oh well of

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course you know some sort of spiritual

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deeper awareness of who we are is the

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only thing that makes sense and I think

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that's a position that that you've

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fought long and hard for and have kind

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of built the case for scientifically so

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it's just an interesting way of seeing

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those two things come together because I

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think the Russell Brand approach is

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probably where most people find

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themselves I mean most people aren't

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willing to do the work but it's nice

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that when they do say okay is there

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anything to really support this new

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belief I'm growing into they can turn to

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books like yours and say oh wow they're

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really they're really as a basis for

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this new understanding I have or an old

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understanding I have because I think

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it's deep within us I think so too

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yes I don't know you've been at this for

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a while you've fought a lot of good

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fights I mean how does it feel to be

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proven right doesn't it seem like things

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are kind of turning not just turning

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your way but I mean do you ever feel

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like gloating a little bit and just

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saying I told you so well I'd quite

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enjoyed gloating I suppose in a little

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while but I I don't actually do that

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very much because you know one hand is

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clear the mood is shifting you know

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old-style dogmatic materialism militant

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atheism dogmatic skepticism they're

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still

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around there's two powerful forces and

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they're still having a big impact but

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they're increasingly a threadbare as

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arguments it seems to me and I knew more

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and more people are realizing that but

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you know we've still got an awfully long

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way to go I mean changes in private

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attitudes take a long time to work

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through into changes in institutions and

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so the kinds of things that you and I

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have both been talking about for years

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have virtually zero impact on the

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curriculum of schools and universities I

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most students are still educated as if

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old-style materialism and old-style

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sciences all there is so it there's in

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very large areas and public policy

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education etc remain more or less

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untouched so I have to remind myself all

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the time what a long way there is to go

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in not just in changing hearts and minds

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of individuals but changing the

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institutions within which we all

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function true true now if I I do think

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that when we're kind of trying to ride

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the the wave and really look into the

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future they have a hard path forward the

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science as we know it types have a

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harder and harder path forward and I

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think we see that in the fallback

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positions they're taking I'm always

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reminded of the old you know truth

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passes through three stages and it's

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ridiculed and then it's violently

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opposed and then I think more and more

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what I see is we're in the third stage

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where science as we know what types are

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saying oh yes of course we knew that all

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along of course we always knew that the

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interconnectedness and the underlying

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spirituality if you will of

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consciousness has always been there do

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you see what do you see is the path

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forward for the materialist dogmatic

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materialist atheists well I think what's

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very interesting is that the younger

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generation are actually turning to

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spiritual practices I'm the older

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generation the sort of Richard Dawkins

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and Daniel

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then it generation are completely

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unreconstructed you know it's old-style

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scientism all the way I'm in Dennis case

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it's more sophisticated than Dawkins

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case but it's still the old that old

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belief system what's interesting about

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the newer generation of materialists is

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that they were actually taking up

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spiritual practices Sam Harris for

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example who's one of the four new

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atheists his most recent book is called

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waking up and it's about the importance

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of meditation and he's been meditating

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for years he's now giving online

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meditation courses here in Britain one

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of our leading public atheist Susan

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Blackmore is a Zen meditators who's

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recently taken up going to Brazil for

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Moscow Center sessions which is finding

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completely transformative so we've got a

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situation where quite a lot of atheists

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are now taking up spiritual practices

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another one is Alain de Botton the

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British philosopher who wrote a book

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called religion for atheists he's trying

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to reinvent religion for atheists and

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here in Britain there's now an atheist

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church called the Sunday assembly where

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there's at least 70 branches so far

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we're atheists meet together on Sunday

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mornings to sing hymns to get their old

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songs and hear uplifting stories and so

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on so they're sort of reinventing

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religion I think these are the this is

274
00:12:40,349 --> 00:12:38,619
what makes the whole debate so

275
00:12:42,749 --> 00:12:40,359
interesting at the moment it's no longer

276
00:12:44,729 --> 00:12:42,759
one lot of people say religion and

277
00:12:48,239 --> 00:12:44,739
spirituality are complete rubbish and

278
00:12:50,969 --> 00:12:48,249
nonsense all we need is sort of science

279
00:12:55,409 --> 00:12:50,979
and reason by which they mean scientism

280
00:12:57,689 --> 00:12:55,419
and a kind of limited rationalism what

281
00:13:01,229 --> 00:12:57,699
they're now saying is spiritual practice

282
00:13:04,469 --> 00:13:01,239
is a good few yes but you don't need

283
00:13:06,569 --> 00:13:04,479
religion as a package and in a way I

284
00:13:08,639 --> 00:13:06,579
agree with them I mean the whole point

285
00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:08,649
of my new book science and spiritual

286
00:13:13,460 --> 00:13:11,130
practices is that

287
00:13:15,470 --> 00:13:13,470
there are a whole range of spiritual

288
00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:15,480
practices I discussed seven of them in

289
00:13:19,820 --> 00:13:17,130
the book which have now been

290
00:13:22,070 --> 00:13:19,830
investigated scientifically and which

291
00:13:25,550 --> 00:13:22,080
show that these practices are indeed

292
00:13:28,850 --> 00:13:25,560
very good for you meditation for example

293
00:13:32,450 --> 00:13:28,860
has many benefits and it's done in both

294
00:13:36,230 --> 00:13:32,460
religious and a secular context so it's

295
00:13:39,530 --> 00:13:36,240
possible to do these practices within a

296
00:13:43,490 --> 00:13:39,540
secular context even with some of them

297
00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:43,500
even with atheist worldviews you can

298
00:13:47,390 --> 00:13:45,450
also do them of course in a religious

299
00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:47,400
context so what's interesting at the

300
00:13:51,530 --> 00:13:49,770
moment is it's open it doesn't mean

301
00:13:54,620 --> 00:13:51,540
you've got to be religious to do

302
00:13:56,150 --> 00:13:54,630
spiritual practices and it doesn't mean

303
00:14:00,040 --> 00:13:56,160
you've got to be non-religious to do

304
00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:00,050
them either that it's a much more open

305
00:14:06,380 --> 00:14:03,090
open situation than I've ever been aware

306
00:14:09,050 --> 00:14:06,390
of before in my lifetime let's talk a

307
00:14:11,750 --> 00:14:09,060
little bit more about the book science

308
00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:11,760
and spiritual practices it begins with a

309
00:14:18,290 --> 00:14:15,450
very nice autobiographical sketch of

310
00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:18,300
your career and in particular your

311
00:14:24,370 --> 00:14:20,610
spiritual development leading up to you

312
00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:24,380
becoming a Christian at the age of 34

313
00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:28,410
while in South India practicing a lot of

314
00:14:36,010 --> 00:14:32,090
yogic in Hindu practices I think people

315
00:14:38,060 --> 00:14:36,020
some people are aware of your religious

316
00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:38,070
affiliation in your background but most

317
00:14:40,790 --> 00:14:39,330
people probably aren't and they'll learn

318
00:14:41,900 --> 00:14:40,800
that from the book can you sketch that

319
00:14:45,620 --> 00:14:41,910
out a little bit here

320
00:14:47,960 --> 00:14:45,630
well yes I this briefly it long story of

321
00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:47,970
course but I started out with a

322
00:14:53,090 --> 00:14:50,490
conventional Christian family Methodists

323
00:14:57,140 --> 00:14:53,100
and I went to a conventional Anglican

324
00:14:59,000 --> 00:14:57,150
boarding school in England what we call

325
00:15:03,260 --> 00:14:59,010
public schools but which are of course

326
00:15:07,250 --> 00:15:03,270
private and so I had a fairly

327
00:15:11,420 --> 00:15:07,260
conventional religious education but by

328
00:15:14,060 --> 00:15:11,430
the age of about 14 or 15 I began to

329
00:15:16,250 --> 00:15:14,070
develop atheistic views and my science

330
00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:16,260
teachers encouraged that because for

331
00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:18,570
them science and atheism were just part

332
00:15:22,900 --> 00:15:20,130
of a package deal I mean they went

333
00:15:24,770 --> 00:15:22,910
together and I wanted to be a scientist

334
00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:24,780
so by the time I was

335
00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:26,970
student at Cambridge I was pretty

336
00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:29,730
full-fledged atheist and I remained so

337
00:15:36,140 --> 00:15:34,530
until my late twenties for the same

338
00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:36,150
reasons that lots of other people are

339
00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:37,890
atheist today you know they think the

340
00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:46,460
but won't began to change me was first

341
00:15:52,250 --> 00:15:49,890
of all I went to live in Asia for a year

342
00:15:55,190 --> 00:15:52,260
and I was working at the University of

343
00:15:57,500 --> 00:15:55,200
Malaya in Malaysia on tropical plants

344
00:16:00,320 --> 00:15:57,510
and on the way there I traveled through

345
00:16:02,420 --> 00:16:00,330
India I spent several months and that

346
00:16:05,450 --> 00:16:02,430
was an enormous revelation to me to be

347
00:16:09,170 --> 00:16:05,460
in a culture that had such a deep and

348
00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:09,180
rich tradition with all these temples

349
00:16:17,510 --> 00:16:12,930
and holy men and Saudis and cannabis

350
00:16:20,030 --> 00:16:17,520
smoking holy men in in sitting in caves

351
00:16:21,950 --> 00:16:20,040
and the Himalayas and so on it was a

352
00:16:24,170 --> 00:16:21,960
whole world that I knew nothing about

353
00:16:27,740 --> 00:16:24,180
and which I found tremendously

354
00:16:29,270 --> 00:16:27,750
intriguing and I'd couldn't regard all

355
00:16:31,430 --> 00:16:29,280
these people are stupid they had a

356
00:16:35,270 --> 00:16:31,440
deeper philosophy than most of people I

357
00:16:38,210 --> 00:16:35,280
knew in Cambridge and so I had to take

358
00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:38,220
seriously this whole new perspective and

359
00:16:43,910 --> 00:16:41,010
then I spent a month in Sri Lanka where

360
00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:43,920
I spent some time talking to monks in a

361
00:16:48,230 --> 00:16:46,170
Buddhist monastery and again that gave

362
00:16:51,950 --> 00:16:48,240
me a perspective on the mind which I'd

363
00:16:54,980 --> 00:16:51,960
completely was a completely ignorant of

364
00:16:57,620 --> 00:16:54,990
from my scientific education now I lived

365
00:17:00,140 --> 00:16:57,630
in an Islamic world in Malaya where

366
00:17:02,390 --> 00:17:00,150
people believed in sort of spells and

367
00:17:05,150 --> 00:17:02,400
witch doctors and all that kind of thing

368
00:17:08,540 --> 00:17:05,160
so it was completely different thing but

369
00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:08,550
all of this was opened my mind in new

370
00:17:14,780 --> 00:17:10,490
ways and when I got back to Cambridge

371
00:17:17,060 --> 00:17:14,790
around 1970-71 I discovered psychedelics

372
00:17:20,660 --> 00:17:17,070
and that again had a huge mind-opening

373
00:17:22,940 --> 00:17:20,670
effect so the result of that was I got

374
00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:22,950
interested in meditation started doing

375
00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:27,570
Transcendental Meditation and then got

376
00:17:31,940 --> 00:17:29,010
more and more interested in yoga and

377
00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:31,950
Hindu philosophy then took a job in

378
00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:36,210
India in 1974 I became the principal

379
00:17:39,290 --> 00:17:38,010
plant physiologist

380
00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:39,300
the international crop research

381
00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:44,490
institute in Hyderabad in India and so I

382
00:17:49,700 --> 00:17:46,170
lived in India thereafter for about

383
00:17:54,680 --> 00:17:49,710
seven years and partly because I was so

384
00:17:56,960 --> 00:17:54,690
intrigued by oriental philosophy and the

385
00:17:59,510 --> 00:17:56,970
last thing I expected was being drawn

386
00:18:03,470 --> 00:17:59,520
back towards a Christian path that was I

387
00:18:05,240 --> 00:18:03,480
thought I'd left that far behind me but

388
00:18:08,230 --> 00:18:05,250
the longer I was in India the more I

389
00:18:10,940 --> 00:18:08,240
realized that a great deal about my own

390
00:18:14,150 --> 00:18:10,950
nature and being was shaped by my

391
00:18:15,890 --> 00:18:14,160
Christian background for example I had a

392
00:18:19,430 --> 00:18:15,900
conversation with one of my Hindu

393
00:18:21,770 --> 00:18:19,440
colleagues and a Brahmin and he said

394
00:18:25,130 --> 00:18:21,780
this was an evening after work

395
00:18:26,690 --> 00:18:25,140
and he said why do you do what you do

396
00:18:28,250 --> 00:18:26,700
and I said well I want to help poor

397
00:18:30,650 --> 00:18:28,260
farmers and I want to help poor people

398
00:18:33,470 --> 00:18:30,660
you know it need a better life by

399
00:18:36,380 --> 00:18:33,480
improving cropping systems and breeding

400
00:18:38,540 --> 00:18:36,390
better crops and he said well he said a

401
00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:38,550
nicer what about you he said for me it's

402
00:18:43,490 --> 00:18:41,250
a job you know it's a good job I said

403
00:18:45,530 --> 00:18:43,500
but what about helping people he said if

404
00:18:47,810 --> 00:18:45,540
people are poor he said that is their

405
00:18:49,730 --> 00:18:47,820
problem it is their Karma that is from

406
00:18:51,860 --> 00:18:49,740
their previous life that is not your

407
00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:51,870
problem your problem is to look after

408
00:18:58,580 --> 00:18:54,210
your own spiritual development he said

409
00:19:01,120 --> 00:18:58,590
and I realized so much of southern

410
00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:01,130
Buddhism Theravada Buddhism and Hinduism

411
00:19:08,180 --> 00:19:04,890
is about following a spiritual path that

412
00:19:10,550 --> 00:19:08,190
basically leads to vertical-takeoff for

413
00:19:13,550 --> 00:19:10,560
those who follow it the rest of the

414
00:19:16,820 --> 00:19:13,560
world is a hopeless place with waves of

415
00:19:19,130 --> 00:19:16,830
reincarnation and samsara and karmic

416
00:19:21,620 --> 00:19:19,140
bondage things are basically getting

417
00:19:24,950 --> 00:19:21,630
worse according to their worldview and

418
00:19:27,820 --> 00:19:24,960
will continue to do so and the only

419
00:19:30,530 --> 00:19:27,830
thing an individual can do is get off

420
00:19:32,420 --> 00:19:30,540
now I realized that in the Jewish and

421
00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:32,430
Christian Christian and Islamic

422
00:19:36,770 --> 00:19:34,770
traditions there's a very different

423
00:19:41,150 --> 00:19:36,780
dimension it's much more about community

424
00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:41,160
about we're in this together and this

425
00:19:45,830 --> 00:19:43,290
very strong sense of interlinking with a

426
00:19:49,730 --> 00:19:45,840
community rather than just an individual

427
00:19:51,139 --> 00:19:49,740
quest maybe realize as much deeper in

428
00:19:53,479 --> 00:19:51,149
the Christian tradition than I

429
00:19:55,940 --> 00:19:53,489
thought and of course my own ideas about

430
00:19:58,180 --> 00:19:55,950
morphic resonance a kind of memory and

431
00:20:02,089 --> 00:19:58,190
collective memory which I'd already

432
00:20:05,029 --> 00:20:02,099
developed at that stage made me realize

433
00:20:07,310 --> 00:20:05,039
that the influence of many generations

434
00:20:10,070 --> 00:20:07,320
of my ancestors in a Christian culture

435
00:20:12,379 --> 00:20:10,080
were going to shape high was whether I

436
00:20:13,849 --> 00:20:12,389
liked it or not and whether I was aware

437
00:20:17,659 --> 00:20:13,859
of it or not and it was better to be

438
00:20:21,169 --> 00:20:17,669
aware of it than not aware of it so I

439
00:20:23,029 --> 00:20:21,179
felt that group being drawn back to a

440
00:20:26,209 --> 00:20:23,039
Christian path made sense for me and

441
00:20:28,969 --> 00:20:26,219
then I met a wonderful question teacher

442
00:20:32,659 --> 00:20:28,979
a monk living in South India in an

443
00:20:35,749 --> 00:20:32,669
ashram father bead griffiths who was a

444
00:20:40,009 --> 00:20:35,759
Benedictine he lived here while the

445
00:20:44,509 --> 00:20:40,019
orange robes of a Indian holy man the

446
00:20:46,849 --> 00:20:44,519
ashram was very simple it was actually

447
00:20:49,219 --> 00:20:46,859
much simpler and more Indian than most

448
00:20:51,019 --> 00:20:49,229
Indian ashrams which at that stage were

449
00:20:53,389 --> 00:20:51,029
completely inundated with foreign

450
00:20:56,079 --> 00:20:53,399
visitors most foreign visitors didn't go

451
00:21:00,139 --> 00:20:56,089
to Christian ashrams so it was actually

452
00:21:02,180 --> 00:21:00,149
paradoxically more Indian and he brought

453
00:21:05,029 --> 00:21:02,190
together a deep understanding of the

454
00:21:07,549 --> 00:21:05,039
Hindu philosophical tradition with the

455
00:21:09,649 --> 00:21:07,559
Christian mystical tradition I hadn't

456
00:21:11,329 --> 00:21:09,659
known much about the Christian mystical

457
00:21:14,629 --> 00:21:11,339
tradition people like Meister Eckhart

458
00:21:17,859 --> 00:21:14,639
and Hildegard of Bingen and the

459
00:21:20,419 --> 00:21:17,869
philosophy of some thomas aquinas and

460
00:21:21,979 --> 00:21:20,429
showed me that many of the things I so

461
00:21:24,079 --> 00:21:21,989
liked in the Hindu tradition were

462
00:21:25,909 --> 00:21:24,089
actually there in the Christian

463
00:21:28,519 --> 00:21:25,919
tradition has just known had mentioned

464
00:21:30,769 --> 00:21:28,529
that and in the more process inside of

465
00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:30,779
Christianity that part of the Christian

466
00:21:36,259 --> 00:21:33,570
path had been rather blotted out but

467
00:21:40,009 --> 00:21:36,269
it's still a very key part of Orthodox

468
00:21:43,489 --> 00:21:40,019
and Roman Catholic monastic and mystical

469
00:21:46,209 --> 00:21:43,499
spirituality it's anyway to me that was

470
00:21:51,469 --> 00:21:46,219
a kind of bridge that enabled me to

471
00:21:56,109 --> 00:21:51,479
follow rediscover a Christian path while

472
00:21:59,209 --> 00:21:56,119
still doing yoga and meditating and

473
00:22:02,180 --> 00:21:59,219
acknowledging the deep insights of a

474
00:22:04,970 --> 00:22:02,190
Hindu and Buddhist traditions so far the

475
00:22:07,370 --> 00:22:04,980
beads approach was not either/or

476
00:22:10,070 --> 00:22:07,380
with both hand and that appealed to me

477
00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:10,080
tremendously I much prefer an inclusive

478
00:22:16,730 --> 00:22:13,170
approach to an exclusive sectarian one

479
00:22:19,850 --> 00:22:16,740
and the problem I have with many people

480
00:22:21,530 --> 00:22:19,860
in who made science into religion is

481
00:22:25,940 --> 00:22:21,540
that they're kind of shrill though

482
00:22:27,980 --> 00:22:25,950
sectarian narrow and dogmatic there are

483
00:22:29,690 --> 00:22:27,990
some questions like that I don't meet

484
00:22:31,010 --> 00:22:29,700
many of them here in England but I know

485
00:22:33,410 --> 00:22:31,020
they exist

486
00:22:36,020 --> 00:22:33,420
most people are now that I meet a more

487
00:22:38,870 --> 00:22:36,030
inclusive and generous in their view of

488
00:22:44,300 --> 00:22:38,880
other traditions but for me anyway this

489
00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:44,310
has been a path that makes sense I don't

490
00:22:47,900 --> 00:22:45,930
try to convert people from other

491
00:22:50,300 --> 00:22:47,910
ancestral backgrounds to a Christian

492
00:22:52,430 --> 00:22:50,310
path I think is better that Hindus

493
00:22:55,430 --> 00:22:52,440
follow a Hindu path and Muslims follow a

494
00:22:57,140 --> 00:22:55,440
minim Muslim path but I do think it's

495
00:23:00,140 --> 00:22:57,150
important for people from the Christian

496
00:23:03,050 --> 00:23:00,150
background to recognize their own

497
00:23:05,390 --> 00:23:03,060
tradition and not simply to try and

498
00:23:08,750 --> 00:23:05,400
reject it but to come to terms with it

499
00:23:10,370 --> 00:23:08,760
in some way that's a whole whole other

500
00:23:12,770 --> 00:23:10,380
subject maybe we'll talk a little bit

501
00:23:14,090 --> 00:23:12,780
about that at the end where I was going

502
00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:14,100
to bring you to where I think will

503
00:23:21,460 --> 00:23:17,850
create an image for people is from the

504
00:23:25,100 --> 00:23:21,470
book you say in 1978 there you are

505
00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:25,110
living in a palm leaf hatched hut under

506
00:23:30,740 --> 00:23:28,170
a banyan tree writing your book you're

507
00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:30,750
quite famous and controversial book a

508
00:23:35,510 --> 00:23:33,930
new science of life so you know here you

509
00:23:37,370 --> 00:23:35,520
are you've gone on that amazing journey

510
00:23:38,180 --> 00:23:37,380
that you just talked about you're 34

511
00:23:41,380 --> 00:23:38,190
years old

512
00:23:44,450 --> 00:23:41,390
you've now reconnected with your

513
00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:44,460
Christian roots and now you're beginning

514
00:23:51,890 --> 00:23:48,450
this scientific writing career that has

515
00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:51,900
sent you on this path and I I just I had

516
00:23:57,650 --> 00:23:54,810
a new sense for how that has informed

517
00:24:01,280 --> 00:23:57,660
you all along while at the same time

518
00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:01,290
you've kind of let that stay in the

519
00:24:06,530 --> 00:24:04,290
background in terms of being out in

520
00:24:08,780 --> 00:24:06,540
front of your writing and even in in

521
00:24:11,270 --> 00:24:08,790
this book this book is probably more out

522
00:24:15,830 --> 00:24:11,280
there than any of your previous books in

523
00:24:19,340 --> 00:24:15,840
terms of your spiritual orientation but

524
00:24:22,910 --> 00:24:19,350
why have you chosen to to lead with the

525
00:24:24,860 --> 00:24:22,920
science aspect of everything because

526
00:24:27,950 --> 00:24:24,870
you're obviously a deeply spiritual

527
00:24:30,710 --> 00:24:27,960
person why lead with the science what is

528
00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:30,720
science bringing to spirituality that

529
00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:33,450
spirituality needs well I think

530
00:24:38,330 --> 00:24:36,090
potentially quite a lot but the reason

531
00:24:40,700 --> 00:24:38,340
that I've been focusing mostly on the

532
00:24:42,590 --> 00:24:40,710
science is because that is my area of

533
00:24:44,390 --> 00:24:42,600
expertise I'm a scientist

534
00:24:47,300 --> 00:24:44,400
I've studied philosophy and history of

535
00:24:50,210 --> 00:24:47,310
science as well yeah yeah but if the

536
00:24:52,010 --> 00:24:50,220
nature of the world if the nature of the

537
00:24:57,050 --> 00:24:52,020
universe if the nature of our being is

538
00:24:59,360 --> 00:24:57,060
essentially spiritual why why science I

539
00:25:02,720 --> 00:24:59,370
mean as a career there's a job as an

540
00:25:04,700 --> 00:25:02,730
interest I get although because no I see

541
00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:04,710
science itself as a kind of spiritual

542
00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:09,210
path for me it is it's a path of inquiry

543
00:25:15,410 --> 00:25:13,050
and a path that you know if if one

544
00:25:17,510 --> 00:25:15,420
believes that all religious people

545
00:25:19,790 --> 00:25:17,520
believe that there's a consciousness

546
00:25:21,410 --> 00:25:19,800
behind the universe materialists and

547
00:25:23,210 --> 00:25:21,420
atheists believe there isn't they think

548
00:25:25,820 --> 00:25:23,220
the university's unconscious matter

549
00:25:28,070 --> 00:25:25,830
working in accordance with mechanical

550
00:25:30,350 --> 00:25:28,080
laws but if there's a consciousness

551
00:25:34,330 --> 00:25:30,360
underlying nature and underlying the

552
00:25:39,500 --> 00:25:34,340
universe which is I think shared by all

553
00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:39,510
religious traditions and then how does

554
00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:42,210
that consciousness work itself out in

555
00:25:48,290 --> 00:25:46,410
the way nature is and how and what does

556
00:25:53,030 --> 00:25:48,300
nature show us about the underlying

557
00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:53,040
principles so one of my one of the

558
00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:54,570
things I think that it shows us straight

559
00:25:58,640 --> 00:25:56,490
away is that nature's not just

560
00:26:01,430 --> 00:25:58,650
mechanical and unconscious which is the

561
00:26:06,050 --> 00:26:01,440
dogmatic view of most materialists and

562
00:26:08,630 --> 00:26:06,060
atheists so to show that nature is more

563
00:26:10,310 --> 00:26:08,640
than just a mechanical system that

564
00:26:13,220 --> 00:26:10,320
animals and plants and more than that

565
00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:13,230
that minds are more than just brains is

566
00:26:18,500 --> 00:26:16,410
an important part of understanding the

567
00:26:20,090 --> 00:26:18,510
world because it's not just a matter of

568
00:26:23,090 --> 00:26:20,100
spiritual practice as a matter of

569
00:26:26,360 --> 00:26:23,100
understanding and how we bring together

570
00:26:29,030 --> 00:26:26,370
our minds our understanding the practice

571
00:26:33,020 --> 00:26:29,040
of science with a

572
00:26:35,900 --> 00:26:33,030
to a deeper reality and one aspect of

573
00:26:38,300 --> 00:26:35,910
that is for me the the idea there's a

574
00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:38,310
memory in nature because the idea of

575
00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:40,410
morphic resonance is that there's an

576
00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:42,810
inherent memory in nature that nature is

577
00:26:48,460 --> 00:26:45,090
truly evolutionary radically

578
00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:48,470
evolutionary new habits can grow up

579
00:26:53,390 --> 00:26:51,450
there's a creative process as well in

580
00:26:55,670 --> 00:26:53,400
evolution if it was just habits nothing

581
00:26:57,620 --> 00:26:55,680
would change if it's just creativity

582
00:26:59,300 --> 00:26:57,630
nothing would stabilize what we have is

583
00:27:02,000 --> 00:26:59,310
a kind of interplay of habits and

584
00:27:05,090 --> 00:27:02,010
creativity so what is the creativity

585
00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:05,100
that underlies the world what to what

586
00:27:10,460 --> 00:27:07,290
degree is there a conscious process

587
00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:10,470
working in nature and in evolution to

588
00:27:15,470 --> 00:27:12,890
what extent is it just blind and chance

589
00:27:17,210 --> 00:27:15,480
these are all scientific questions as

590
00:27:19,430 --> 00:27:17,220
well as being spiritual questions

591
00:27:23,780 --> 00:27:19,440
because they help to make sense of where

592
00:27:27,350 --> 00:27:23,790
we are in the world so for me the the to

593
00:27:30,500 --> 00:27:27,360
go on together and although I've most my

594
00:27:33,740 --> 00:27:30,510
books primarily about science and about

595
00:27:36,860 --> 00:27:33,750
how to enlarge the frontiers of science

596
00:27:39,500 --> 00:27:36,870
how to take science further and I'm not

597
00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:39,510
anti science I'm totally Pro science as

598
00:27:46,310 --> 00:27:42,890
my whole endeavor is to try and enlarge

599
00:27:48,470 --> 00:27:46,320
the realm of science the title of my

600
00:27:51,410 --> 00:27:48,480
most recent book in the u.s. science set

601
00:27:53,510 --> 00:27:51,420
free is about that I mean the book

602
00:27:55,910 --> 00:27:53,520
before science and spiritual practices

603
00:27:58,040 --> 00:27:55,920
but I have actually written on these

604
00:28:00,650 --> 00:27:58,050
things I did two books for example with

605
00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:00,660
the theologian and philosopher Matthew

606
00:28:05,780 --> 00:28:03,810
Fox or one called natural grace

607
00:28:09,590 --> 00:28:05,790
dialogues on science and spirituality

608
00:28:12,770 --> 00:28:09,600
and another one called the physics of

609
00:28:15,170 --> 00:28:12,780
angels and I've also been doing an

610
00:28:19,460 --> 00:28:15,180
ongoing series of dialogues with the

611
00:28:22,030 --> 00:28:19,470
British philosopher Mark Vernon and with

612
00:28:24,980 --> 00:28:22,040
the Bishop of the Episcopal bishop of

613
00:28:26,630 --> 00:28:24,990
California Mark Andrews who's at Grace

614
00:28:31,580 --> 00:28:26,640
Cathedral who's a great friend of mine

615
00:28:34,250 --> 00:28:31,590
and so this other side of my work is is

616
00:28:37,730 --> 00:28:34,260
all their online informed dialogues and

617
00:28:42,470 --> 00:28:37,740
also in these books so

618
00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:42,480
I see them for me they go together but

619
00:28:47,930 --> 00:28:45,210
this is the first book in which I've

620
00:28:50,649 --> 00:28:47,940
decided or third book in which I brought

621
00:28:54,110 --> 00:28:50,659
together science and spirituality

622
00:28:56,990 --> 00:28:54,120
looking at spiritual practices from the

623
00:28:58,510 --> 00:28:57,000
scientific point of view and the reason

624
00:29:01,940 --> 00:28:58,520
I think that's important is because

625
00:29:03,590 --> 00:29:01,950
first of all spiritual practices which

626
00:29:06,190 --> 00:29:03,600
used to be embedded in the world's

627
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:06,200
religious traditions can now be

628
00:29:10,669 --> 00:29:09,210
practiced outside those traditions and

629
00:29:12,769 --> 00:29:10,679
we can learn from all the different

630
00:29:14,870 --> 00:29:12,779
traditions like meditation every

631
00:29:18,139 --> 00:29:14,880
religion has its own traditions of

632
00:29:20,990 --> 00:29:18,149
meditation but we can now learn Buddhist

633
00:29:23,870 --> 00:29:21,000
types or Hindu types or Sufi types or

634
00:29:25,340 --> 00:29:23,880
Greek Orthodox types or whatever there's

635
00:29:28,430 --> 00:29:25,350
all these different types of meditation

636
00:29:30,289 --> 00:29:28,440
available now but they've also been

637
00:29:33,260 --> 00:29:30,299
studied scientifically and the science

638
00:29:34,850 --> 00:29:33,270
shows that these practices affect the

639
00:29:38,149 --> 00:29:34,860
brain in particular waves affect

640
00:29:41,090 --> 00:29:38,159
physiology affect health and affect our

641
00:29:44,510 --> 00:29:41,100
mental state protect against depression

642
00:29:48,289 --> 00:29:44,520
for example so I think this is a very

643
00:29:50,269 --> 00:29:48,299
very rich field and I've been interested

644
00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:50,279
through but this is the first time I've

645
00:29:56,029 --> 00:29:53,610
actually put them all together in this

646
00:29:57,860 --> 00:29:56,039
way which is why this book was in some

647
00:30:00,830 --> 00:29:57,870
ways a kind of coming together of these

648
00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:00,840
two different sides of my life which in

649
00:30:06,409 --> 00:30:02,970
my own life of course are combined but

650
00:30:10,130 --> 00:30:06,419
which in the public domain may seem

651
00:30:12,919 --> 00:30:10,140
somewhat separate I still struggle and I

652
00:30:16,370 --> 00:30:12,929
struggled while reading the book with

653
00:30:19,100 --> 00:30:16,380
those two sides I mean there it's just

654
00:30:22,430 --> 00:30:19,110
like two ends of the telescope on one

655
00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:22,440
hand I certainly get what you're saying

656
00:30:27,470 --> 00:30:24,690
and in the book science and spiritual

657
00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:27,480
practices you make a strong case for as

658
00:30:31,490 --> 00:30:29,730
you are just alluding to look at the

659
00:30:33,529 --> 00:30:31,500
science of meditation how can we

660
00:30:35,690 --> 00:30:33,539
possibly deny it look at it from a

661
00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:35,700
scientific standpoint how can we

662
00:30:40,250 --> 00:30:37,770
possibly deny the health benefits we

663
00:30:42,049 --> 00:30:40,260
can't you further goemon talk about

664
00:30:45,470 --> 00:30:42,059
gratitude or connecting with the

665
00:30:47,299 --> 00:30:45,480
nonhuman world that is and and relating

666
00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:47,309
to plants and on and on we can go

667
00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:50,370
through all the different seven

668
00:30:56,180 --> 00:30:53,010
spiritual practices if you will and then

669
00:30:57,950 --> 00:30:56,190
you you give us the science behind it

670
00:31:00,380 --> 00:30:57,960
and make the case for that from a

671
00:31:02,870 --> 00:31:00,390
scientific standpoint yet at the same

672
00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:02,880
time and you alluded to that this is a

673
00:31:08,510 --> 00:31:04,890
deep part of your being and something

674
00:31:10,580 --> 00:31:08,520
you've explored and mcc's Plourd on this

675
00:31:13,940 --> 00:31:10,590
show as well including an interview with

676
00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:13,950
mark vernon who along with you host that

677
00:31:20,299 --> 00:31:17,610
very excellent science set free podcast

678
00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:20,309
but the other end of the telescope as I

679
00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:22,650
was alluding to is that we're talking

680
00:31:26,930 --> 00:31:24,690
about spirituality here we're talking

681
00:31:29,210 --> 00:31:26,940
about you know the mind of God

682
00:31:31,540 --> 00:31:29,220
so are we looking through the wrong end

683
00:31:34,340 --> 00:31:31,550
of the telescope when we insist on

684
00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:34,350
bringing it down to some scientific

685
00:31:40,340 --> 00:31:38,090
studies so we can convince somebody to

686
00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:40,350
reconnect with what they already know I

687
00:31:48,650 --> 00:31:45,890
understand that as you know may be

688
00:31:50,330 --> 00:31:48,660
effective in winning the hearts and

689
00:31:52,510 --> 00:31:50,340
minds of the masses kind of in a

690
00:31:55,700 --> 00:31:52,520
political sense but on a deeper

691
00:31:58,150 --> 00:31:55,710
spiritual sense does that really make

692
00:32:01,610 --> 00:31:58,160
sense to science really relate to that

693
00:32:05,030 --> 00:32:01,620
deeper spirituality in us in the way

694
00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:05,040
that you're talking about well I think

695
00:32:11,090 --> 00:32:08,970
it should do and where this becomes the

696
00:32:13,549 --> 00:32:11,100
most pressing question is when we come

697
00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:13,559
to the nature of consciousness because

698
00:32:19,220 --> 00:32:16,650
the area of materialist science that's

699
00:32:21,860 --> 00:32:19,230
weakest is in dealing with consciousness

700
00:32:24,140 --> 00:32:21,870
because after all materialism says

701
00:32:26,750 --> 00:32:24,150
matters the only reality and that is

702
00:32:29,299 --> 00:32:26,760
unconscious so there's a real problem in

703
00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:29,309
explaining why consciousness exists at

704
00:32:34,310 --> 00:32:32,370
least in us and that's why it's called

705
00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:34,320
the hard problem in the philosophy of

706
00:32:41,990 --> 00:32:39,450
mind so if we really want to understand

707
00:32:44,210 --> 00:32:42,000
ourselves we all of us grow up in the

708
00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:44,220
scientific society we go and see doctors

709
00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:47,130
who take our pulse and sometimes do

710
00:32:53,390 --> 00:32:49,410
scans of brains and the rest of the body

711
00:32:55,970 --> 00:32:53,400
and so on we're engaged in in a world a

712
00:32:58,130 --> 00:32:55,980
scientific and technological world now

713
00:33:02,630 --> 00:32:58,140
we use it everyday computers the

714
00:33:04,060 --> 00:33:02,640
internet smartphones etc so we're

715
00:33:07,359 --> 00:33:04,070
embedded in that world

716
00:33:10,119 --> 00:33:07,369
and I think it's really important to

717
00:33:12,460 --> 00:33:10,129
make a bridge between that and spiritual

718
00:33:15,249 --> 00:33:12,470
practices most of which grew up long

719
00:33:17,950 --> 00:33:15,259
before the Scientific Revolution and the

720
00:33:20,169 --> 00:33:17,960
modern technologies I guess all my

721
00:33:23,049 --> 00:33:20,179
Rupert I guess I'm questioning that

722
00:33:25,389 --> 00:33:23,059
bridge you know you're very inclusive in

723
00:33:28,599 --> 00:33:25,399
the book saying that this is a book that

724
00:33:30,820 --> 00:33:28,609
atheists and secular people can kind of

725
00:33:32,979 --> 00:33:30,830
get into and you said that earlier on

726
00:33:35,710 --> 00:33:32,989
but is that really true aren't there

727
00:33:37,570 --> 00:33:35,720
some fundamental philosophical and

728
00:33:40,419 --> 00:33:37,580
scientific questions as you're just

729
00:33:42,580 --> 00:33:40,429
related to regarding consciousness that

730
00:33:44,469 --> 00:33:42,590
leave people on one side or the other

731
00:33:47,049 --> 00:33:44,479
side of the divide and when we paper

732
00:33:48,820 --> 00:33:47,059
that over and say no here is a bridge is

733
00:33:51,759 --> 00:33:48,830
that really a bridge or do people just

734
00:33:53,979 --> 00:33:51,769
have to take a hard swallow and say gee

735
00:33:56,499 --> 00:33:53,989
you know that isn't true

736
00:33:59,289 --> 00:33:56,509
my understanding of consciousness is

737
00:34:01,779 --> 00:33:59,299
paying a product or a 100% product of my

738
00:34:04,060 --> 00:34:01,789
brain and this dopey materialism that

739
00:34:05,710 --> 00:34:04,070
just isn't true don't they need to take

740
00:34:10,089 --> 00:34:05,720
our heart swallow and accept that to

741
00:34:16,149 --> 00:34:13,260
not as a result of intellectual or

742
00:34:18,940 --> 00:34:16,159
scientific arguments but as a result of

743
00:34:20,470 --> 00:34:18,950
experience and that's the whole point of

744
00:34:23,020 --> 00:34:20,480
spiritual practices they're about

745
00:34:27,039 --> 00:34:23,030
experience rather than about argument

746
00:34:31,359 --> 00:34:27,049
and so now you see meditation is a very

747
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:31,369
good litmus paper for this because lots

748
00:34:38,079 --> 00:34:33,770
of people meditate you know Christians

749
00:34:40,030 --> 00:34:38,089
Jews Muslims Hindus Buddhists Sikhs many

750
00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:40,040
people have meditated over the centuries

751
00:34:45,250 --> 00:34:42,530
and many religious people meditate today

752
00:34:47,020 --> 00:34:45,260
but so do millions of people who do it

753
00:34:50,379 --> 00:34:47,030
in a completely secular framework

754
00:34:54,030 --> 00:34:50,389
including sam Harris and Susan Blackmore

755
00:34:57,129 --> 00:34:54,040
both of them card-carrying atheists now

756
00:34:59,319 --> 00:34:57,139
they're the interesting thing here you

757
00:35:01,450 --> 00:34:59,329
see is that when you meditate if there's

758
00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:01,460
an experience of an expansion of

759
00:35:05,349 --> 00:35:03,530
consciousness when and you get to know

760
00:35:08,620 --> 00:35:05,359
your mind better you see thoughts

761
00:35:10,690 --> 00:35:08,630
passing through and but by having

762
00:35:15,039 --> 00:35:10,700
another point of view from the breathing

763
00:35:17,830 --> 00:35:15,049
or the mantra those that sometimes

764
00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:17,840
opening up of a space of being part of

765
00:35:22,630 --> 00:35:20,090
greater consciousness than what we

766
00:35:25,420 --> 00:35:22,640
normally experience the same also

767
00:35:27,850 --> 00:35:25,430
happens to people who take psychedelics

768
00:35:30,390 --> 00:35:27,860
and for some people psychedelics are a

769
00:35:32,650 --> 00:35:30,400
very important rite of passage

770
00:35:36,940 --> 00:35:32,660
particularly those that give near-death

771
00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:36,950
type experiences like DMT so I'm writing

772
00:35:40,810 --> 00:35:38,450
another book and dealing with more

773
00:35:45,670 --> 00:35:40,820
spiritual practices and that includes a

774
00:35:49,810 --> 00:35:45,680
chapter on psychedelics so for people

775
00:35:51,910 --> 00:35:49,820
who had those experiences the the

776
00:35:53,950 --> 00:35:51,920
experience of being part of a far

777
00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:53,960
greater consciousness than one's own

778
00:35:58,510 --> 00:35:55,610
which is a kind of mystical experience

779
00:36:03,120 --> 00:35:58,520
and all these spiritual practices lead

780
00:36:07,830 --> 00:36:05,470
then what do you make of it

781
00:36:10,060 --> 00:36:07,840
you see if you're a complete

782
00:36:11,980 --> 00:36:10,070
card-carrying materialist then you say

783
00:36:13,810 --> 00:36:11,990
oh well this is all just changes new

784
00:36:17,020 --> 00:36:13,820
nerve connections and the brain the

785
00:36:19,900 --> 00:36:17,030
release of dopamine reward systems being

786
00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:19,910
activated there is shutting down of the

787
00:36:28,660 --> 00:36:24,050
default mode Network etc you can say all

788
00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:28,670
that but the experience you have goes

789
00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:33,530
rather far beyond these theories these

790
00:36:38,740 --> 00:36:36,890
observations and and goes far beyond the

791
00:36:40,660 --> 00:36:38,750
dogmas of scientific materialism which

792
00:36:42,910 --> 00:36:40,670
after all is based simply on an act of

793
00:36:44,410 --> 00:36:42,920
faith an assumption that matters the

794
00:36:46,750 --> 00:36:44,420
only reality there's no greater

795
00:36:49,570 --> 00:36:46,760
consciousness in the universe than our

796
00:36:51,720 --> 00:36:49,580
own or possibly that of other animals or

797
00:36:54,370 --> 00:36:51,730
little green men or something but

798
00:36:56,740 --> 00:36:54,380
basically saying the rest of the

799
00:36:58,720 --> 00:36:56,750
universe is unconscious now if you have

800
00:37:00,910 --> 00:36:58,730
experiences through meditation and

801
00:37:03,130 --> 00:37:00,920
through other spiritual practices that

802
00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:03,140
make you feel your consciousness as part

803
00:37:08,410 --> 00:37:05,690
of something far greater that's much

804
00:37:10,240 --> 00:37:08,420
more likely to make you accept the

805
00:37:13,540 --> 00:37:10,250
possibility that there really is a

806
00:37:15,340 --> 00:37:13,550
greater consciousness then some abstract

807
00:37:17,350 --> 00:37:15,350
intellectual argument which would never

808
00:37:19,870 --> 00:37:17,360
be convincing I very few people have

809
00:37:22,720 --> 00:37:19,880
been convinced of the existence of God

810
00:37:25,150 --> 00:37:22,730
or the spiritual realm through purely

811
00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:25,160
intellectual arguments it mainly comes

812
00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:28,490
through experience that's why I think

813
00:37:31,550 --> 00:37:30,650
these are so important and I think the

814
00:37:35,570 --> 00:37:31,560
people who

815
00:37:37,790 --> 00:37:35,580
meditate we start meditating with a

816
00:37:40,270 --> 00:37:37,800
scientific approach it's going to make

817
00:37:42,830 --> 00:37:40,280
them feel better reduce stress levels

818
00:37:44,930 --> 00:37:42,840
lower blood pressure make them sleep

819
00:37:49,460 --> 00:37:44,940
better at cetera do it for health

820
00:37:51,590 --> 00:37:49,470
benefits may they they may do that start

821
00:37:54,190 --> 00:37:51,600
to start with for scientific reasons or

822
00:37:57,500 --> 00:37:54,200
scientifically validated reasons but

823
00:37:59,720 --> 00:37:57,510
through practicing it they may have

824
00:38:01,490 --> 00:37:59,730
experiences that lead them to see the

825
00:38:03,530 --> 00:38:01,500
world differently to move to a different

826
00:38:05,990 --> 00:38:03,540
perspective and I think that's what's

827
00:38:09,770 --> 00:38:06,000
likely to happen to a lot of secular

828
00:38:11,690 --> 00:38:09,780
meditators so I don't think that meat is

829
00:38:13,850 --> 00:38:11,700
something that's going to happen as a

830
00:38:16,340 --> 00:38:13,860
kind of intellectual leap of faith I

831
00:38:18,380 --> 00:38:16,350
think it's going to be something that

832
00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:18,390
for most people happens as a matter of

833
00:38:22,910 --> 00:38:20,970
experience and then adjusting their

834
00:38:25,700 --> 00:38:22,920
intellectual view to be in better

835
00:38:27,710 --> 00:38:25,710
accordance with their experience so I

836
00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:27,720
think experience comes first for most

837
00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:31,170
people it certainly does for me maybe

838
00:38:36,710 --> 00:38:34,050
I mean you're kind of advocating shut up

839
00:38:42,230 --> 00:38:36,720
and calculate becomes shut up and

840
00:38:44,090 --> 00:38:42,240
meditate well sort of yes I mean I think

841
00:38:45,970 --> 00:38:44,100
that actually at the basis of all

842
00:38:48,500 --> 00:38:45,980
spiritual traditions and religions

843
00:38:52,070 --> 00:38:48,510
experiences the primary the primary

844
00:38:56,030 --> 00:38:52,080
driver I think is what is in it for most

845
00:38:57,950 --> 00:38:56,040
people not a belief system I don't think

846
00:38:59,720 --> 00:38:57,960
I think you know religions do have

847
00:39:03,020 --> 00:38:59,730
belief systems but I don't think their

848
00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:03,030
primary you know most people who go to

849
00:39:07,070 --> 00:39:05,010
church are not going to church because

850
00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:07,080
they've sat down thought about the

851
00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:10,050
Christian Creed come to the conclusion

852
00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:11,610
every little bit of it is absolutely

853
00:39:15,650 --> 00:39:14,370
true and then go to church there are

854
00:39:18,110 --> 00:39:15,660
people who go to church because they

855
00:39:19,970 --> 00:39:18,120
like singing hymns or in the field part

856
00:39:23,180 --> 00:39:19,980
of something bigger than themselves a

857
00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:23,190
part of a larger community open to a

858
00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:24,690
spiritual dimension through the

859
00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:27,450
sacraments and say the Creed because

860
00:39:31,580 --> 00:39:29,490
it's part of the service and without

861
00:39:34,010 --> 00:39:31,590
often understanding very much about what

862
00:39:36,170 --> 00:39:34,020
it's saying I think that's much closer

863
00:39:39,080 --> 00:39:36,180
to the reality for most people probably

864
00:39:41,870 --> 00:39:39,090
true I'm not totally comfortable with

865
00:39:44,590 --> 00:39:41,880
that I don't I'm less geared that way

866
00:39:48,580 --> 00:39:44,600
I'm more geared towards the rational

867
00:39:51,100 --> 00:39:48,590
knowing before I experienced and I have

868
00:39:54,210 --> 00:39:51,110
to say in talking with so many people

869
00:39:56,770 --> 00:39:54,220
over the years who've had extraordinary

870
00:39:58,990 --> 00:39:56,780
experiences paranormal experiences and

871
00:40:00,580 --> 00:39:59,000
spiritually transformative experiences

872
00:40:03,190 --> 00:40:00,590
one of the things I've always

873
00:40:06,310 --> 00:40:03,200
appreciated about your work is that it

874
00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:06,320
injects science or at least the

875
00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:08,810
scientific method back into the process

876
00:40:12,910 --> 00:40:10,130
and I think a very appropriate way

877
00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:12,920
because the scientific method is about

878
00:40:16,780 --> 00:40:14,930
tools for better thinking I can't tell

879
00:40:20,560 --> 00:40:16,790
you how many times I talk to people and

880
00:40:23,380 --> 00:40:20,570
they say no the spirituality is this way

881
00:40:26,500 --> 00:40:23,390
because that's my experience near-death

882
00:40:28,380 --> 00:40:26,510
experiences are exclusively Christian

883
00:40:30,820 --> 00:40:28,390
because that's my experience

884
00:40:33,670 --> 00:40:30,830
reincarnation doesn't happen because

885
00:40:36,700 --> 00:40:33,680
that's my experience in traveling to the

886
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:36,710
astral plane and getting this download

887
00:40:41,860 --> 00:40:39,010
of information you balance these two

888
00:40:45,790 --> 00:40:41,870
wonderfully but I think when we kind of

889
00:40:47,620 --> 00:40:45,800
are open to tricking people huh tricking

890
00:40:50,650 --> 00:40:47,630
people into having an experience that

891
00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:50,660
transforms them without at the same time

892
00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:52,850
saying there is which I think you are

893
00:40:58,450 --> 00:40:55,610
saying there's a basis and a method for

894
00:41:01,480 --> 00:40:58,460
understanding this rationally I don't

895
00:41:04,090 --> 00:41:01,490
know I think we shortchange folks well I

896
00:41:06,160 --> 00:41:04,100
mean I totally agree with you Alex I'm

897
00:41:07,750 --> 00:41:06,170
not trying to shortchange anyone the

898
00:41:10,270 --> 00:41:07,760
reason that my book is called science

899
00:41:12,730 --> 00:41:10,280
and spiritual experiences science and

900
00:41:15,340 --> 00:41:12,740
spiritual practices is precisely because

901
00:41:17,160 --> 00:41:15,350
I think it's important to have a

902
00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:17,170
rational understanding of why these

903
00:41:23,350 --> 00:41:20,570
experiences may work and why they work

904
00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:23,360
what they might mean and how they might

905
00:41:28,450 --> 00:41:25,130
connect to a bigger picture it's

906
00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:28,460
precisely for that reason that I try to

907
00:41:34,540 --> 00:41:32,450
combine these two you know you've talked

908
00:41:35,740 --> 00:41:34,550
peoples in the line of your doing your

909
00:41:37,900 --> 00:41:35,750
program who have had these experiences

910
00:41:40,210 --> 00:41:37,910
and think you know this is it you know

911
00:41:42,910 --> 00:41:40,220
extraterrestrials channeling this and

912
00:41:44,830 --> 00:41:42,920
that and so on well I get emails the

913
00:41:47,500 --> 00:41:44,840
whole time I mean I'm bombarded with

914
00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:47,510
them from people who've had all sorts of

915
00:41:54,070 --> 00:41:52,010
strange experiences and all people have

916
00:41:58,089 --> 00:41:54,080
got strange theories I mean I get all

917
00:42:00,549 --> 00:41:58,099
kinds but I would like you I

918
00:42:04,319 --> 00:42:00,559
it's very important to hold these two

919
00:42:07,239 --> 00:42:04,329
perspectives together and that's why

920
00:42:10,809 --> 00:42:07,249
it's exactly why really I'm trying to

921
00:42:12,729 --> 00:42:10,819
emphasize both in this book not just the

922
00:42:15,430 --> 00:42:12,739
science not just the spiritual

923
00:42:18,039 --> 00:42:15,440
experiences and where I think that our

924
00:42:20,670 --> 00:42:18,049
own understanding has to understand

925
00:42:23,969 --> 00:42:20,680
realized both on experience and on

926
00:42:26,829 --> 00:42:23,979
rational understanding and after all

927
00:42:29,289 --> 00:42:26,839
science is based on the experimental

928
00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:29,299
method and the experimental method is

929
00:42:34,599 --> 00:42:31,970
essentially about experience you know in

930
00:42:40,109 --> 00:42:34,609
French the same word means experience

931
00:42:43,599 --> 00:42:40,119
and experiment experience means both and

932
00:42:46,779 --> 00:42:43,609
experiment or empirical means to do with

933
00:42:49,299 --> 00:42:46,789
experience so in a way science and

934
00:42:53,190 --> 00:42:49,309
spiritual practices are both empirically

935
00:42:57,849 --> 00:42:53,200
rooted they're both rooted in experience

936
00:43:00,660 --> 00:42:57,859
and so there isn't there's only really a

937
00:43:02,979 --> 00:43:00,670
conflict between the two if one has an

938
00:43:04,989 --> 00:43:02,989
ideology of science that rules out

939
00:43:07,479 --> 00:43:04,999
everything spiritual if one has a

940
00:43:09,190 --> 00:43:07,489
scientific worldview that includes the

941
00:43:12,819 --> 00:43:09,200
spiritual at least the possibility of

942
00:43:15,849 --> 00:43:12,829
opens two openings to the spiritual then

943
00:43:18,089 --> 00:43:15,859
the conflict isn't there really in the

944
00:43:23,499 --> 00:43:18,099
same way that it is in the context of

945
00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:23,509
materialism Rupert you make a strong

946
00:43:29,499 --> 00:43:28,130
case for the science of spirituality and

947
00:43:31,140 --> 00:43:29,509
you've you've made it over and over in

948
00:43:33,969 --> 00:43:31,150
this show and in the book it's

949
00:43:37,630 --> 00:43:33,979
overwhelming I think but let's talk

950
00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:37,640
about religion because I sometimes feel

951
00:43:43,209 --> 00:43:40,130
like you're letting religion tag along

952
00:43:46,239 --> 00:43:43,219
for free on that ride on that science

953
00:43:48,849 --> 00:43:46,249
ride in a way that it doesn't deserve I

954
00:43:51,130 --> 00:43:48,859
mean I've done a number of shows on

955
00:43:52,959 --> 00:43:51,140
Christian apologetics including like I

956
00:43:54,940 --> 00:43:52,969
said Mark Vernon who I just think is

957
00:43:57,969 --> 00:43:54,950
wonderful and I really enjoyed our

958
00:44:02,140 --> 00:43:57,979
conversation on this show but when you

959
00:44:05,410 --> 00:44:02,150
dig into Christian apologetics biblical

960
00:44:09,190 --> 00:44:05,420
scholarship that they don't hold up well

961
00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:09,200
from a scientific standpoint and don't

962
00:44:15,099 --> 00:44:11,210
we have to hold that

963
00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:15,109
hold that lens hold that lens of better

964
00:44:21,099 --> 00:44:17,330
thinking that the scientific method

965
00:44:23,320 --> 00:44:21,109
brings us and say while there may be an

966
00:44:24,849 --> 00:44:23,330
under there is undoubtedly let me go

967
00:44:28,500 --> 00:44:24,859
further there is undoubtedly an

968
00:44:32,589 --> 00:44:28,510
underlying spiritual truth to

969
00:44:36,820 --> 00:44:32,599
Christianity there is also a lot that

970
00:44:41,500 --> 00:44:36,830
needs to be swept out and cleaned up in

971
00:44:45,130 --> 00:44:41,510
terms of the institution the dogma and

972
00:44:47,589 --> 00:44:45,140
the the the practices that don't really

973
00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:47,599
make sense from a from a rational

974
00:44:56,589 --> 00:44:51,410
logical way how do you how do you deal

975
00:45:00,520 --> 00:44:56,599
with with some of that well first of all

976
00:45:06,280 --> 00:45:00,530
I'm not in favor of dogmatic you know

977
00:45:08,410 --> 00:45:06,290
credulity and in terms of you know I'm a

978
00:45:11,829 --> 00:45:08,420
regular practicing Anglican I go to

979
00:45:14,320 --> 00:45:11,839
church almost every Sunday wherever I am

980
00:45:15,940 --> 00:45:14,330
that's one of my practices so I meet a

981
00:45:19,359 --> 00:45:15,950
lot of people who are practicing

982
00:45:22,060 --> 00:45:19,369
Anglicans and the first thing is that

983
00:45:24,430 --> 00:45:22,070
the practically everywhere I meet when I

984
00:45:26,859 --> 00:45:24,440
go to church there's almost no relation

985
00:45:27,849 --> 00:45:26,869
to the caricature of what most people

986
00:45:30,970 --> 00:45:27,859
have in their minds

987
00:45:33,520 --> 00:45:30,980
absolutely what religious people are the

988
00:45:35,890 --> 00:45:33,530
caricatures have kind of mostly shaped

989
00:45:38,500 --> 00:45:35,900
by Southern Baptist fundamentalist or

990
00:45:40,660 --> 00:45:38,510
telly evangelists or creationists or

991
00:45:42,579 --> 00:45:40,670
something well there's actually no

992
00:45:44,170 --> 00:45:42,589
creationists in the Church of England or

993
00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:44,180
in the remnant Catholic Church here in

994
00:45:48,550 --> 00:45:46,010
England or maybe in America that there

995
00:45:53,079 --> 00:45:48,560
aren't here and I practically never meet

996
00:45:55,180 --> 00:45:53,089
them and so that kind of dogmatism that

997
00:45:57,640 --> 00:45:55,190
you know kind of fundamentalist

998
00:46:00,430 --> 00:45:57,650
dogmatism i don't meet in a religious

999
00:46:03,280 --> 00:46:00,440
context in england in my own experience

1000
00:46:07,660 --> 00:46:03,290
I meet it all the time when I encounter

1001
00:46:09,130 --> 00:46:07,670
so-called skeptics and atheists right

1002
00:46:11,530 --> 00:46:09,140
right but that's not that's not really

1003
00:46:13,960 --> 00:46:11,540
the point the point is does that does

1004
00:46:16,210 --> 00:46:13,970
the historical Jesus matter does the

1005
00:46:18,640 --> 00:46:16,220
historical Jesus of the Bible stand up

1006
00:46:20,620 --> 00:46:18,650
does the does biblical scholarship

1007
00:46:24,200 --> 00:46:20,630
reveal that the authors of the Bible

1008
00:46:26,599 --> 00:46:24,210
aren't weren't who we were told and have

1009
00:46:29,150 --> 00:46:26,609
Bend that for a thousand years we've

1010
00:46:32,150 --> 00:46:29,160
known that so there's I mean there there

1011
00:46:35,089 --> 00:46:32,160
is a there is a fact base there there is

1012
00:46:36,829 --> 00:46:35,099
a knowledge base at the end that I think

1013
00:46:39,170 --> 00:46:36,839
makes a difference I think makes a

1014
00:46:42,140 --> 00:46:39,180
difference and I just am uncomfortable

1015
00:46:43,940 --> 00:46:42,150
with Christians who are too quick to

1016
00:46:46,099 --> 00:46:43,950
gloss over that and say well it doesn't

1017
00:46:49,070 --> 00:46:46,109
it doesn't really make a difference what

1018
00:46:50,660 --> 00:46:49,080
matters is again my experience my

1019
00:46:52,700 --> 00:46:50,670
personal experience with Christ

1020
00:46:55,130 --> 00:46:52,710
consciousness which I would never deny

1021
00:46:57,260 --> 00:46:55,140
anyone their personal experience with

1022
00:47:00,109 --> 00:46:57,270
Christ consciousness but I want to know

1023
00:47:03,230 --> 00:47:00,119
how that how that meshes with the

1024
00:47:05,780 --> 00:47:03,240
historical record that is important oh I

1025
00:47:08,060 --> 00:47:05,790
agree and I mean biblical scholarship

1026
00:47:10,790 --> 00:47:08,070
has revealed all sorts of things about

1027
00:47:14,000 --> 00:47:10,800
the Bible and it's clear that some

1028
00:47:18,380 --> 00:47:14,010
elements of it mythic know there's sort

1029
00:47:22,700 --> 00:47:18,390
of stories that grow up that it it is it

1030
00:47:25,790 --> 00:47:22,710
literally the case that the Virgin Mary

1031
00:47:28,990 --> 00:47:25,800
was intact virgin when she had Jesus

1032
00:47:31,609 --> 00:47:29,000
well personally I don't think it is and

1033
00:47:32,990 --> 00:47:31,619
there were biblical scholarship players

1034
00:47:37,099 --> 00:47:33,000
that role in something like the

1035
00:47:38,420 --> 00:47:37,109
so-called virgin birth is you know to

1036
00:47:39,349 --> 00:47:38,430
say that the word in the Greek New

1037
00:47:42,320 --> 00:47:39,359
Testament

1038
00:47:45,829 --> 00:47:42,330
Carthon ours means young woman or maiden

1039
00:47:49,820 --> 00:47:45,839
it doesn't it doesn't necessarily imply

1040
00:47:51,770 --> 00:47:49,830
an intact virgin and and you would get

1041
00:47:53,300 --> 00:47:51,780
stories of virgin birth in relation to

1042
00:47:56,120 --> 00:47:53,310
the Buddha and all sorts of other

1043
00:47:59,359 --> 00:47:56,130
historical figures so that looks very

1044
00:48:02,420 --> 00:47:59,369
much like a kind of mythic accretion and

1045
00:48:04,550 --> 00:48:02,430
indeed this is not that I was in my own

1046
00:48:08,839 --> 00:48:04,560
time church here in Hampstead the sermon

1047
00:48:11,930 --> 00:48:08,849
last Sunday the the was saying more or

1048
00:48:13,430 --> 00:48:11,940
less the same thing so it's you know no

1049
00:48:18,349 --> 00:48:13,440
one seemed particularly shocked or

1050
00:48:20,990 --> 00:48:18,359
bothered but the key thing I do think

1051
00:48:23,810 --> 00:48:21,000
Jesus actually existed I do think that

1052
00:48:26,120 --> 00:48:23,820
Jesus actually went round teaching many

1053
00:48:27,980 --> 00:48:26,130
of the things we read about in in the

1054
00:48:32,420 --> 00:48:27,990
New Testament and most biblical

1055
00:48:35,540 --> 00:48:32,430
scholarship suggests that that was the

1056
00:48:36,780 --> 00:48:35,550
case it also suggests that his followers

1057
00:48:40,410 --> 00:48:36,790
believed

1058
00:48:43,380 --> 00:48:40,420
- undergone she reappeared after he was

1059
00:48:45,150 --> 00:48:43,390
crucified and that's why the church got

1060
00:48:48,690 --> 00:48:45,160
going if he hadn't done that it wouldn't

1061
00:48:50,310 --> 00:48:48,700
have done maybe they were it wasn't a

1062
00:48:52,230 --> 00:48:50,320
belief imposed later it was a

1063
00:48:55,140 --> 00:48:52,240
contemporary belief that was very vivid

1064
00:48:56,550 --> 00:48:55,150
for them right and let's just let's just

1065
00:48:59,660 --> 00:48:56,560
leave that let's just leave that hanging

1066
00:49:02,880 --> 00:48:59,670
I don't think that really holds up to

1067
00:49:05,100 --> 00:49:02,890
really careful scrutiny either one of

1068
00:49:06,780 --> 00:49:05,110
those and so I guess my question is

1069
00:49:09,840 --> 00:49:06,790
without diving into that and trying to

1070
00:49:13,890 --> 00:49:09,850
pull all that apart here does that at

1071
00:49:15,750 --> 00:49:13,900
what point does that matter see the

1072
00:49:18,120 --> 00:49:15,760
thing is what point does it matter the

1073
00:49:19,830 --> 00:49:18,130
thing is that well let's just let's take

1074
00:49:22,200 --> 00:49:19,840
the resurrection I mean here's my point

1075
00:49:25,080 --> 00:49:22,210
is I don't I don't think it does matter

1076
00:49:27,330 --> 00:49:25,090
in the way that Christians have been

1077
00:49:30,960 --> 00:49:27,340
told it matters and the way that

1078
00:49:33,110 --> 00:49:30,970
Christians function I mean I just had an

1079
00:49:36,030 --> 00:49:33,120
occasion not too recently to attend a a

1080
00:49:40,290 --> 00:49:36,040
funeral ceremony at a celebration of

1081
00:49:41,790 --> 00:49:40,300
life ceremony at a local church very

1082
00:49:43,110 --> 00:49:41,800
nice church is very well attended those

1083
00:49:45,630 --> 00:49:43,120
wonderful people and like you say you

1084
00:49:47,760 --> 00:49:45,640
know all people that I would enjoy you

1085
00:49:49,980 --> 00:49:47,770
know sitting down over lunch and talking

1086
00:49:52,320 --> 00:49:49,990
to and not the characters that did you

1087
00:49:52,800 --> 00:49:52,330
see but at the same time I mean let's

1088
00:49:57,170 --> 00:49:52,810
get real

1089
00:50:00,690 --> 00:49:57,180
they're holding to a certain set of

1090
00:50:03,150 --> 00:50:00,700
beliefs historical accounts that I don't

1091
00:50:05,340 --> 00:50:03,160
think are hold up to scrutiny and we can

1092
00:50:07,140 --> 00:50:05,350
disagree on that but that are seem to be

1093
00:50:09,870 --> 00:50:07,150
central to what they believe they're not

1094
00:50:11,730 --> 00:50:09,880
at the point of saying it's about where

1095
00:50:13,710 --> 00:50:11,740
I am which is to say you can encounter

1096
00:50:15,870 --> 00:50:13,720
Christ consciousness without ever

1097
00:50:17,670 --> 00:50:15,880
reading the Bible I mean just pray to

1098
00:50:19,800 --> 00:50:17,680
Jesus and Jesus shows up but doesn't

1099
00:50:21,570 --> 00:50:19,810
doesn't matter and and I think every

1100
00:50:24,180 --> 00:50:21,580
religious tradition says that you know

1101
00:50:26,010 --> 00:50:24,190
what I just heard a great story the

1102
00:50:28,590 --> 00:50:26,020
Indian story about the Buffalo boy you

1103
00:50:30,480 --> 00:50:28,600
know the boy who's out hurting Buffalo

1104
00:50:32,760 --> 00:50:30,490
you know and in he sees the Brahmin

1105
00:50:34,740 --> 00:50:32,770
priest and he goes over and says oh you

1106
00:50:37,260 --> 00:50:34,750
know I'm just a humble Buffalo boy help

1107
00:50:38,760 --> 00:50:37,270
me help me you know see God and they all

1108
00:50:41,100 --> 00:50:38,770
kind of snicker and laugh and go hear

1109
00:50:42,360 --> 00:50:41,110
African Buffalo boy so they play a trick

1110
00:50:44,730 --> 00:50:42,370
on him and they say here's what you do

1111
00:50:46,710 --> 00:50:44,740
you go sinned under that tree and say

1112
00:50:48,690 --> 00:50:46,720
buffalo Buffalo buffalo that's your

1113
00:50:50,310 --> 00:50:48,700
mantra so he doesn't know and they're

1114
00:50:51,690 --> 00:50:50,320
Brahman so he goes okay

1115
00:50:53,220 --> 00:50:51,700
and he goes sits under the tree and you

1116
00:50:55,490 --> 00:50:53,230
know how this story is gonna end he sits

1117
00:50:58,260 --> 00:50:55,500
there and he's determined and he says

1118
00:51:00,240 --> 00:50:58,270
Buffalo buffalo buffalo and he meditates

1119
00:51:02,040 --> 00:51:00,250
in and says that mantra over and over

1120
00:51:05,370 --> 00:51:02,050
again and God does come to him because

1121
00:51:07,260 --> 00:51:05,380
God shows up I mean that's I think the

1122
00:51:09,120 --> 00:51:07,270
underlying reality but that doesn't have

1123
00:51:10,890 --> 00:51:09,130
anything to do with the Bible I mean the

1124
00:51:13,110 --> 00:51:10,900
you can have the Bible or not have about

1125
00:51:15,990 --> 00:51:13,120
what God shows up what if that's the

1126
00:51:18,570 --> 00:51:16,000
truth oh well I think it is the truth

1127
00:51:22,590 --> 00:51:18,580
and I'm not saying it's not the truth

1128
00:51:24,960 --> 00:51:22,600
and what I'm saying is that if you know

1129
00:51:27,960 --> 00:51:24,970
I have an option living here in

1130
00:51:29,730 --> 00:51:27,970
Hampstead England on Sundays I can stay

1131
00:51:31,530 --> 00:51:29,740
at home and read the Sunday newspapers

1132
00:51:36,090 --> 00:51:31,540
and I can meditate which I do anyway

1133
00:51:39,300 --> 00:51:36,100
every day and or I can go to a church

1134
00:51:41,610 --> 00:51:39,310
service on Sunday morning where I sing

1135
00:51:43,740 --> 00:51:41,620
beautiful hymns as incredibly beautiful

1136
00:51:47,640 --> 00:51:43,750
music as a community of people I'd like

1137
00:51:49,560 --> 00:51:47,650
and respect I take part in a communion

1138
00:51:52,470 --> 00:51:49,570
that for me is important the Holy

1139
00:51:55,740 --> 00:51:52,480
Communion I take part in collective

1140
00:51:58,200 --> 00:51:55,750
prayers for the welfare of local people

1141
00:52:00,150 --> 00:51:58,210
and people all over the world and I

1142
00:52:02,730 --> 00:52:00,160
usually emerge from that experience

1143
00:52:04,650 --> 00:52:02,740
feeling uplifted and inspired and I

1144
00:52:07,380 --> 00:52:04,660
receive a blessing from the priest and

1145
00:52:10,530 --> 00:52:07,390
beautiful robes and I emerge from that

1146
00:52:15,630 --> 00:52:10,540
feeling uplifted and inspired and better

1147
00:52:17,550 --> 00:52:15,640
than if I hadn't gone and so Camellia

1148
00:52:19,440 --> 00:52:17,560
it's not a question of is this all

1149
00:52:21,540 --> 00:52:19,450
totally true and is every little word of

1150
00:52:24,660 --> 00:52:21,550
the Bible literally true I don't think

1151
00:52:27,540 --> 00:52:24,670
it is but it for me the question is is

1152
00:52:29,880 --> 00:52:27,550
taking part in this ritual this series

1153
00:52:33,150 --> 00:52:29,890
of rituals this communal singing all of

1154
00:52:35,670 --> 00:52:33,160
which are spiritual practices these

1155
00:52:38,910 --> 00:52:35,680
collective spiritual practices is this

1156
00:52:41,130 --> 00:52:38,920
helpful or is it not helpful I do find

1157
00:52:42,990 --> 00:52:41,140
it helpful there are some people who

1158
00:52:44,700 --> 00:52:43,000
don't find it helpful that's fair enough

1159
00:52:48,510 --> 00:52:44,710
I don't think it's necessary for

1160
00:52:51,690 --> 00:52:48,520
salvation or for connecting with the

1161
00:52:54,330 --> 00:52:51,700
other with the ultimate I am NOT saying

1162
00:52:56,880 --> 00:52:54,340
that at all and here in Britain only

1163
00:52:59,370 --> 00:52:56,890
about 5% of the population go to church

1164
00:53:02,880 --> 00:52:59,380
regularly so we're talking a very small

1165
00:53:03,870 --> 00:53:02,890
minority 95% have no regular religious

1166
00:53:06,240 --> 00:53:03,880
observance

1167
00:53:08,270 --> 00:53:06,250
so the great majority of people on

1168
00:53:10,980 --> 00:53:08,280
Sunday morning are cleaning their car or

1169
00:53:13,020 --> 00:53:10,990
reading the newspaper or just hanging

1170
00:53:16,710 --> 00:53:13,030
out well I do that all the rest of

1171
00:53:18,570 --> 00:53:16,720
Sunday I don't have a car but I mean I

1172
00:53:22,170 --> 00:53:18,580
do all sorts of things usually have

1173
00:53:24,390 --> 00:53:22,180
quite a bit of fun but so for me the

1174
00:53:26,310 --> 00:53:24,400
issue is not whether it's true whether

1175
00:53:29,040 --> 00:53:26,320
every aspects the Bible is true but

1176
00:53:31,590 --> 00:53:29,050
whether being part of and connecting

1177
00:53:35,040 --> 00:53:31,600
with this tradition is helpful or not

1178
00:53:38,010 --> 00:53:35,050
and I do find it's helpful I find it

1179
00:53:40,320 --> 00:53:38,020
routes me in the local sacred place it

1180
00:53:44,100 --> 00:53:40,330
routes me in sacred time it gives me a

1181
00:53:46,950 --> 00:53:44,110
sense of special time on the relay on

1182
00:53:49,080 --> 00:53:46,960
the Haun's Sunday as being not just all

1183
00:53:51,330 --> 00:53:49,090
about emails and work and another

1184
00:53:54,060 --> 00:53:51,340
dimension to life and to collective

1185
00:53:56,580 --> 00:53:54,070
practice and of course you can have that

1186
00:53:58,320 --> 00:53:56,590
without going to church of course you

1187
00:54:01,110 --> 00:53:58,330
can and I'm not saying everyone should

1188
00:54:03,540 --> 00:54:01,120
or ought to go to church I'm just saying

1189
00:54:05,250 --> 00:54:03,550
for me it's a valuable practice and I

1190
00:54:07,410 --> 00:54:05,260
think it's a valuable practice for a lot

1191
00:54:08,970 --> 00:54:07,420
of other people too and it might be a

1192
00:54:10,470 --> 00:54:08,980
valuable practice for people who've

1193
00:54:13,110 --> 00:54:10,480
never thought of giving it a try it

1194
00:54:15,960 --> 00:54:13,120
might be worth giving it a try so Rupert

1195
00:54:19,830 --> 00:54:15,970
final question for you you just touched

1196
00:54:22,110 --> 00:54:19,840
on several of the seven spiritual

1197
00:54:24,870 --> 00:54:22,120
practices outlined in the new book

1198
00:54:27,180 --> 00:54:24,880
science and spiritual practices you just

1199
00:54:30,930 --> 00:54:27,190
touched on quite beautifully and I think

1200
00:54:34,100 --> 00:54:30,940
very naturally in in talking about your

1201
00:54:36,810 --> 00:54:34,110
Christian expression and your Christian

1202
00:54:39,300 --> 00:54:36,820
faith and how it manifests in your life

1203
00:54:42,930 --> 00:54:39,310
that tell folks what do you think is the

1204
00:54:46,470 --> 00:54:42,940
one or two of those spiritual practices

1205
00:54:51,260 --> 00:54:46,480
that they're probably not aware of that

1206
00:54:53,700 --> 00:54:51,270
you think can be particularly impactful

1207
00:54:56,130 --> 00:54:53,710
well I think most people are aware of

1208
00:54:57,510 --> 00:54:56,140
the connection with nature aspect which

1209
00:54:59,520 --> 00:54:57,520
I talked about and I think that's

1210
00:55:03,270 --> 00:54:59,530
something probably for many people is a

1211
00:55:06,480 --> 00:55:03,280
very important part but one of the

1212
00:55:08,580 --> 00:55:06,490
aspects that's probably more relevant in

1213
00:55:11,100 --> 00:55:08,590
Britain than in North America but is

1214
00:55:13,290 --> 00:55:11,110
relevant everywhere is the rediscovery

1215
00:55:15,600 --> 00:55:13,300
of pilgrimage going on a Sacred Journey

1216
00:55:17,310 --> 00:55:15,610
and

1217
00:55:20,640 --> 00:55:17,320
in the chapter where I talk about

1218
00:55:23,070 --> 00:55:20,650
pilgrimage I'm particularly interested

1219
00:55:24,960 --> 00:55:23,080
in that because with a group of people

1220
00:55:26,340 --> 00:55:24,970
here in England I'm part of an

1221
00:55:28,320 --> 00:55:26,350
organization called the British

1222
00:55:31,230 --> 00:55:28,330
pilgrimage crust that's reopening the

1223
00:55:34,890 --> 00:55:31,240
ancient foot path pilgrimages throughout

1224
00:55:37,380 --> 00:55:34,900
Britain now we have a course a different

1225
00:55:39,510 --> 00:55:37,390
situation here from North America

1226
00:55:41,130 --> 00:55:39,520
because most white Americans were all

1227
00:55:44,760 --> 00:55:41,140
white Americans our descendant from

1228
00:55:47,130 --> 00:55:44,770
colonists and settlers and the

1229
00:55:49,170 --> 00:55:47,140
indigenous people there who did have

1230
00:55:52,590 --> 00:55:49,180
lots of sacred places and part of their

1231
00:55:57,090 --> 00:55:52,600
culture might not want sort of their

1232
00:56:01,290 --> 00:55:57,100
sacred places being taken over by the

1233
00:56:03,240 --> 00:56:01,300
white settlers so you know it's a

1234
00:56:06,690 --> 00:56:03,250
slightly more difficult situation I mean

1235
00:56:08,400 --> 00:56:06,700
I'm a native English and my ancestors

1236
00:56:12,150 --> 00:56:08,410
were English for as long as I could

1237
00:56:14,340 --> 00:56:12,160
record show and so the sacred places of

1238
00:56:16,410 --> 00:56:14,350
England which are some pre-christian

1239
00:56:18,830 --> 00:56:16,420
like Stonehenge and sunder the question

1240
00:56:22,950 --> 00:56:18,840
like Canterbury Cathedral and so on

1241
00:56:24,720 --> 00:56:22,960
Glastonbury and these connect with my

1242
00:56:26,510 --> 00:56:24,730
ancestral traditions I think that this

1243
00:56:28,800 --> 00:56:26,520
is a somewhat harder thing in America

1244
00:56:31,680 --> 00:56:28,810
although I do think that the national

1245
00:56:34,890 --> 00:56:31,690
parks and the state parks are the modern

1246
00:56:37,290 --> 00:56:34,900
equivalent of sacred groves and as I

1247
00:56:39,330 --> 00:56:37,300
discuss in in my book one thing that

1248
00:56:43,680 --> 00:56:39,340
people may not have thought about quite

1249
00:56:46,890 --> 00:56:43,690
in those terms is how sacred groves were

1250
00:56:48,540 --> 00:56:46,900
a very major part of all religions in

1251
00:56:52,940 --> 00:56:48,550
the ancient world including the Jewish

1252
00:56:55,470 --> 00:56:52,950
religion in Palestine to start with

1253
00:56:58,680 --> 00:56:55,480
Abraham had his visions who's sleeping

1254
00:57:02,970 --> 00:56:58,690
under a sacred tree is an initial vision

1255
00:57:05,460 --> 00:57:02,980
that set him out on his path that this

1256
00:57:09,540 --> 00:57:05,470
this connection was I think that

1257
00:57:11,670 --> 00:57:09,550
reframing national parks and sanctuaries

1258
00:57:15,900 --> 00:57:11,680
nature reserves and so on the sacred

1259
00:57:19,320 --> 00:57:15,910
groves helps to see them they're not

1260
00:57:21,090 --> 00:57:19,330
just about you know being close to

1261
00:57:23,220 --> 00:57:21,100
nature they're not just about going for

1262
00:57:25,410 --> 00:57:23,230
walk and getting fresh air and being

1263
00:57:27,780 --> 00:57:25,420
healthy they have a spiritual dimension

1264
00:57:29,070 --> 00:57:27,790
and this was actually built into the

1265
00:57:31,680 --> 00:57:29,080
national park movement

1266
00:57:34,260 --> 00:57:31,690
the US by John Muir who was very

1267
00:57:37,620 --> 00:57:34,270
spiritually motivated in his struggle to

1268
00:57:42,990 --> 00:57:37,630
conserve these great places and so I

1269
00:57:44,490 --> 00:57:43,000
think a revisionist acred groves of

1270
00:57:47,280 --> 00:57:44,500
North America which has some of the

1271
00:57:50,850 --> 00:57:47,290
finest and greatest in the world

1272
00:57:54,350 --> 00:57:50,860
is something that would perhaps be a new

1273
00:57:57,210 --> 00:57:54,360
take on spirituality for some people

1274
00:57:59,310 --> 00:57:57,220
wonderful wonderful well thank you so

1275
00:58:01,710 --> 00:57:59,320
much for joining me again our guest has

1276
00:58:04,550 --> 00:58:01,720
been dr. Rupert Sheldrake his new book

1277
00:58:06,840 --> 00:58:04,560
science in spiritual practices

1278
00:58:10,410 --> 00:58:06,850
transformative experiences and their

1279
00:58:13,680 --> 00:58:10,420
effects on our bodies brains and health

1280
00:58:15,470 --> 00:58:13,690
it's a book that is available in

1281
00:58:17,910 --> 00:58:15,480
different parts of the world right now

1282
00:58:19,590 --> 00:58:17,920
probably when this show comes out you

1283
00:58:22,650 --> 00:58:19,600
might have to wait a couple months in

1284
00:58:25,950 --> 00:58:22,660
the US but it's worth it I have I've had

1285
00:58:28,770 --> 00:58:25,960
the chance to I was able to buy a copy

1286
00:58:30,690 --> 00:58:28,780
on Kindle by the way so other people can

1287
00:58:32,610 --> 00:58:30,700
do that you just have to fool around on

1288
00:58:34,560 --> 00:58:32,620
Amazon they have different international

1289
00:58:37,940 --> 00:58:34,570
rights but definitely pick up this book

1290
00:58:40,620 --> 00:58:37,950
it's so so worth it and to connect with

1291
00:58:42,360 --> 00:58:40,630
Rupert through this book is going to be

1292
00:58:44,940 --> 00:58:42,370
a tremendous experience and hopefully

1293
00:58:46,830 --> 00:58:44,950
you all had that experience in the last

1294
00:58:49,230 --> 00:58:46,840
hour in connecting with him Rupert

1295
00:58:52,710 --> 00:58:49,240
thanks again so much for joining me well

1296
00:58:54,150 --> 00:58:52,720
thank you thanks again to dr. Rupert

1297
00:58:56,820 --> 00:58:54,160
Sheldrake for joining me today on

1298
00:59:00,150 --> 00:58:56,830
skeptic oh I guess I'd have one question

1299
00:59:03,390 --> 00:59:00,160
to tee up from this interview and it has

1300
00:59:06,500 --> 00:59:03,400
to do with this emerging interface

1301
00:59:09,350 --> 00:59:06,510
between science and spiritual practices

1302
00:59:11,670 --> 00:59:09,360
Rupert makes a strong case for the

1303
00:59:15,060 --> 00:59:11,680
scientific evidence regarding the

1304
00:59:17,490 --> 00:59:15,070
benefits of spiritual practices but I

1305
00:59:20,370 --> 00:59:17,500
guess I'd want to take things in a

1306
00:59:23,520 --> 00:59:20,380
different direction and look at it from

1307
00:59:27,300 --> 00:59:23,530
the standpoint of once we leapfrog past

1308
00:59:30,000 --> 00:59:27,310
the dopey materialistic science as we

1309
00:59:32,930 --> 00:59:30,010
know it paradigm and truly jump to the

1310
00:59:36,450 --> 00:59:32,940
other side of extended consciousness and

1311
00:59:39,810 --> 00:59:36,460
spirituality being a reality I'd like to

1312
00:59:43,079 --> 00:59:39,820
know how science might interface and

1313
00:59:46,440 --> 00:59:43,089
inform with the kinds of questions we

1314
00:59:49,709 --> 00:59:46,450
would have as spiritual seekers what

1315
00:59:52,469 --> 00:59:49,719
spiritual practices are best for which

1316
00:59:56,130 --> 00:59:52,479
types of people measured under which

1317
00:59:59,489 --> 00:59:56,140
circumstances and maybe a hint at what

1318
01:00:03,049 --> 00:59:59,499
that would then say about the underlying

1319
01:00:06,299 --> 01:00:03,059
structure and meaning of these extended

1320
01:00:08,519 --> 01:00:06,309
consciousness realms so those would be

1321
01:00:11,099 --> 01:00:08,529
some of the questions that I would have

1322
01:00:13,499 --> 01:00:11,109
in terms of turning the science and

1323
01:00:16,259 --> 01:00:13,509
spirituality thing around a little bit

1324
01:00:18,779 --> 01:00:16,269
I'd love to get your thoughts on that if

1325
01:00:21,089 --> 01:00:18,789
it sparks your interest my question

1326
01:00:23,370 --> 01:00:21,099
there please give me an answer either

1327
01:00:26,579 --> 01:00:23,380
through this sceptical form or just drop

1328
01:00:29,579 --> 01:00:26,589
me an email or comment someplace share

1329
01:00:32,579 --> 01:00:29,589
this and leave a comment and send me a

1330
01:00:35,640 --> 01:00:32,589
link and I'll find it and find a way to

1331
01:00:39,329 --> 01:00:35,650
respond by the way many of you have

1332
01:00:42,019 --> 01:00:39,339
reached out to me regarding my call-out

1333
01:00:45,329 --> 01:00:42,029
for people who might want to help

1334
01:00:47,819 --> 01:00:45,339
skeptic Oh in some way or another again

1335
01:00:50,880 --> 01:00:47,829
it's been a fantastic experience for me

1336
01:00:54,059 --> 01:00:50,890
I love hearing from you I love hearing

1337
01:00:57,420 --> 01:00:54,069
about how your creativity has been

1338
01:01:00,269 --> 01:00:57,430
sparked in some way by this show and I

1339
01:01:02,640 --> 01:01:00,279
love hearing your new and creative ways

1340
01:01:05,309 --> 01:01:02,650
and how you'd like to contribute or

1341
01:01:08,039 --> 01:01:05,319
somehow get involved in this so if that

1342
01:01:10,709 --> 01:01:08,049
does spark your interest I do encourage

1343
01:01:13,650 --> 01:01:10,719
you to contact me I'd love to hear from

1344
01:01:16,799 --> 01:01:13,660
you so I do have a number of interesting

1345
01:01:19,829 --> 01:01:16,809
shows coming up on skeptic oh please do

1346
01:01:24,000 --> 01:01:19,839
stay with me for all of that until next